Forum

Hello,

We have reason to believe our competitor is intentionally interfering with our equipment at events to prevent our clients from connecting to our APs.  Few quick questions:

1) How hard it is to fingerprint our competitor and have an “expert witness” provide documentation that can be provided to the FCC?

2) How would I go about finding people who can provide this service?  We have an event coming up in Denver and would love to get a smoking gun.

3) How much we would expect for someone to provide such a service?

Any help, advice and/or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Best,

Seth

What kind of equipment ?  What kind of venue?

Do you complete site surveys before you set up ?

My company sets up and tests before trade shows just fine, but the moment the hall fills up with vendors, there is so much interference, it creates some real headaches ?

One company in CO is Eight-O-Two Technology Solutions at 719-325-7560.

If they can't help you, they may be able to point you to someone else.

Howard,

Thanks so much for the quick response and referral.

We are using MBR1400 mobile routers in convention centers for trade show, so not able to do site surveys beforehand.  While we do see the channel contention spike on 2.4 when the event starts, we are broadcasting on the virtually wide open 5 GHz spectrum and see that our clients are continuously getting deauthed.

If you'd like to compare notes on your trade show experiences, happy to connect over the phone sometime.

Thanks again for your help.

Best,

Seth

(866) 385-150 four x702

I would love to get a spectrum and protocol analyzer going when that is happening, might be interesting.

Easy Seth 2.4/5GHz is unlicensed and there is nothing that the FCC can do for you.

Finger-printing? It’s called mac addresses, frame capture, legal too.

I could do this for you, and would be willing to travel to Denver to help you out; single day of consultation plus expenses.

Seth what I think is going on is that more than likely the venue is utilizing active WIPS/WIDS; sites AP’s relay rouge AP info (your AP) to the WIPS/WIDS which will then de-auth STA’s associating to a rouge AP. Don’t most sites make attendees pay for  internet access? Don’t most large venues also do mobile POS? A real incentive to utilize WIPs/WIDS to drive revenue!  Also from an engineering standpoint 1 WLAN is much better then multiple ones operating in the same physical space.

Chris

If you still want to talk (four-two-five) seven five seven-1979

Yes, ISM and UNII bands are unlicensed.    But they are regulated.

You might find all sorts of activity that the FCC would find objectionable.   For one, if they are intentionally interfering with legal communications, or running higher power than allowed, or using a jammer.   All sorts of illegal stuff.    Restraint of trade maybe ?

CB Radio is also unlicensed, but the FCC has fined several users thousands of dollars in just the last couple months.   Specifically for interfering with other CB users or having too powerful a transmitter.

You may also find that the show organizers would kick-out or ban the offender from future shows.   The BBB, your industry magazines - not good for a companies image !    

It would also be a unique marketing bonus for your own product - "Our competitors can't beat our better products so they lie, cheat, and steal.   Are you willing to trust them with your business ?"   etc

Howard Seth states that something is xmitting dea-auths, so while the offender could be utilizing more than 4W/2.4 various/5GHz it’s probably not an issue. Even if someone was intentionally using a device or laptop to de-auth STA’s what can the FCC do? Not saying you couldn’t use the civil court system to your benefit, isn’t that just a waste of time?  Like I said it’s a revenue source for the venues, and if Seth’s customers are using his (Seth’s)  AP’s then if it was my WLAN I’d sure be happy to tell the boss and chuckle as I told him I just shut down an offending rouge AP brought in by some hapless vendor that they thought would provide them a WLAN, ha ha ha!!!  Not saying that’s 100% what’s going on but??? Heck it might even be against the venues vendor rules to bring your own AP’s in; I’ve seen that before too.

As to further FCC action, it’s at a trade show, its 802.11; it’s not a fixed permanent link, who cares?

As to FCC action on “boosted” cb’s? I’ve never known a trucker that didn’t boost theirs, spotty enforcement at best? I mean get real the FCC just let the telco’s and sat providers obliterate  AM radio, wonder what CBS radio pays for a license for WFAN in NYC, just so it gets interfered with right over the river in NJ, FCC enforcement please?

 The poster rents this equipment: http://www.cwnp.com/forums/forum-posts.php?postNum=306360#post306360 

Seth maybe you should have been 100% about what is going on, and what your problem really is.

Thanx Chris

FYI the media circus that surrounds an NFL game includes the use of a wireless camera that utilizes the entire 2.4GHz band in CW format, I never got around to measuring it with a power meter but if it doesn’t exceed 4W I’d be really surprised, when that camera is xmitting you can see it anywhere in the stadium, I mean everywhere! Please Howard call the FCC!

Not so much sporadic, as difficult to track down.   Truckers are by definition moving around.   Fixed stations are easier to catch.   For example, here are a few recent fines in 2014 by the FCC for CB operators.  This first one is from 08/31/2014.

$22,000 fine for a New York CBer, James Engle of Lewiston, New York, for interfering with the communications of other CBers.

$14,000 fine for a Florida CBer for failing to allow a station inspection.

$12,000  fine for operating a Citizens Band radio for interfering with the communications of other CBers.

I didn't put it my original reply, but my first guess would also have been AP's previously installed by the venue owner.

And sirkozz, there's no need to be sarcastic. 

Howard did not mean to offend with the sarcasm just that the knee-jerk reaction to utilize rules and lawyers as a first mode of defense reeks and is exactly what’s wrong in this country; Apple suing Samsung for patent infringement; forgetting the fact that the most advanced cell phones come from Japan and is where both Apple and Samsung stole their ideas from; I don’t see any company suing Apple or Samsung? Besides Japanese patent law is very different than ours (USA), and is not an impediment to innovation like it is here in the states; Apple received a patent for “the page turn on a reader”. The point is as soon as you utilize lawyers, the only ones who make out here are the lawyers. Nothing wrong with making money or lawyers just that litigation produces nothing for the economy except lawyers’ fees and court costs.

Seth as to your issue you’re forgetting that the documents you reference mention 2 exceptions; safety & historical buildings. Ignoring the historical building premise the safety clause covers everything, because all the venue owner has to have is a security camera on the WLAN and your equipment would be in direct violation of the statute. Also the computer fraud and abuse act also would preempt the FCC guidelines meaning that data security on the WLAN would also prevent your equipment from operating as it could pose a security risk, think PCI, mobile POS, on the WLAN. Public safety always trumps everything; you can stand on a street corner screaming fire, but do it in a movie theater and go to jail.  Better find a new business model cause the one your using is not up to date with the use of a WLAN in the 21st century; the one document you reference is the telecom act of 96, not exactly the renaissance of WLAN, did anyone have an aircard in 96? How many people had cell phones then? Heck the Nokia 4800 wasn’t out yet and AMPS was the only thing available, I remember connecting my cell phone to my laptop with a serial cable and being impressed with 1200bps, no RTT1 or GPRS yet.

Good Luck!!!

Chris

Shakespeare didn't care much for lawyers either.

"Henry VI" act IV, scene ii, line 86